Curse

Luna Thirteen · Aug 23, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

All the time I notice people ranting on how "grind ruins the fun of the game, I want to play the game, not grind blah blah blah" and I started to think about what these individuals are actually implying. I've pretty much grown up on RPGs. In the course of every one of these games, I've had to level up my characters through random battles so that I would be strong enough to continue the progression of the game. I don't recall ever saying to myself "Wow, Final Fantasy is boring, this game should just be cutscenes and boss battles." or "I'm sick of leveling up. Why don't I get to start at level 99?" The fact is that games all require some form of grind or another. If they didn't, games would be too boring and I would offer no satisfaction when one earns a victory. These little "victories" are often the result of hours of work. Finding that max damage gold rare stormbow is a big deal, not because it's fun to run around in Lion's Arch advertising a "GODLY STORMBOW ONLY 150K" but because you have something to show for the hours of work you put into the game. Honestly, if you have such a huge problem with Guildwars rewarding grind, then I have no clue why you're playing this game. Someone who has spent over 500 hours playing the game is just going to have more stuff than someone who has played 100 hours, despite that they may be at the same point in the game. That's just realistic.

Someone who PvPs all day every day is going to have access to more stuff through faction points than someone who doesn't. That's not saying "If you don't play all day, you can't win." It's just the way games work. If you feel like you have to "grind" to compete with everyone else, then you're right. But realize that such is the way in every videogame. You just have to go through the motions sometimes. If it's that terrible for you, then I guess games aren't for you. Try reading a book or something. But just so you know, you'll probably only be interested in the first and last page

Mumblyfish · Aug 23, 2005, 12:40 AM // 00:40

I'm astounded. No, not all games have "grinds". In fact, very few do, and MMOs are the biggest culprits. There's no grind to, say, Team Fortress, as a brand new player has access to everything a seasoned competitive player has. Of course, the seasoned player will win in a fight between the two, but that's decided by skill and not arbitrary conditions like weapon unlocks or attributes that must be gained by playing the game for X amount of hours. Your notion that all games involve grind is, quite frankly, insane. And as much as I loathe Final Fantasy, it's a poor example. I've only played a couple, but there's no grind. You're never forced to raise your stats to continue, and even finish the game. I've bever had to "level my characters through random battles so I would be strong enough to continue", as you put it. Of the few Final Fantasies I've played, I never once had to stop playing to go fight the same monster over and over again for items or experience.

Your post is horribly short-sighted and misinformed. Frankly, I don't even think you've played that many games at all, or at least ones that aren't grind-orientated stat-fests.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna Thirteen

All the time I notice people ranting on how "grind ruins the fun of the game, I want to play the game, not grind blah blah blah" and I started to think about what these individuals are actually implying. I've pretty much grown up on RPGs. In the course of every one of these games, I've had to level up my characters through random battles so that I would be strong enough to continue the progression of the game. I don't recall ever saying to myself "Wow, Final Fantasy is boring, this game should just be cutscenes and boss battles." or "I'm sick of leveling up. Why don't I get to start at level 99?" The fact is that games all require some form of grind or another. If they didn't, games would be too boring and I would offer no satisfaction when one earns a victory. These little "victories" are often the result of hours of work. Finding that max damage gold rare stormbow is a big deal, not because it's fun to run around in Lion's Arch advertising a "GODLY STORMBOW ONLY 150K" but because you have something to show for the hours of work you put into the game. Honestly, if you have such a huge problem with Guildwars rewarding grind, then I have no clue why you're playing this game. Someone who has spent over 500 hours playing the game is just going to have more stuff than someone who has played 100 hours, despite that they may be at the same point in the game. That's just realistic.

Someone who PvPs all day every day is going to have access to more stuff through faction points than someone who doesn't. That's not saying "If you don't play all day, you can't win." It's just the way games work. If you feel like you have to "grind" to compete with everyone else, then you're right. But realize that such is the way in every videogame. You just have to go through the motions sometimes. If it's that terrible for you, then I guess games aren't for you. Try reading a book or something. But just so you know, you'll probably only be interested in the first and last page

I agree 110% and here is why:

I am 26 years old. My generation (okay that was a blanket statement so those in my life that are that age, sue me) grew up with Nintendo, Atari, etc. Those of us that have been gamers all that time, from childhood on up, have come to believe that we, as gamers in general, are somehow entitled to shit.

We are used to being gratified right f-ing now, and just how f-ing we want it. I see daily, especially in my local gaming shop(s) that people beneath my age level have had this upbringing in far more pronounced ways. Instant gratification, email, the ability to have it now, pay for it later, have the perk but not the sweat and toil, these things define a HUGE chunk of popular culture these days. If we cannot have it now, we have a shit fit.

Games are supposed to entertain you, but part of that entertainment aspect is the feeling of success or accomplishment when you achieve a goal, obtain a significant or insignificant (in the big picture) victory over an opponent. In the case of a video game or pc game, it is monsters, AI, and sometimes other players. If you want to be Billy Badass, you need to realize that even back on pacman, I started out level one, and had to advance the mazes. There was no tech support department that could "nerf this" or "rebalance" that.

Spoiled brats will be spoiled brats. Working for something is a world removed from many, and is lost on them.

IlikeGW · Aug 23, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Stupendous thread.

It's like, is it possible there are different brands of beer?

Is it possible there are different colors?

What else do you want people to spend time "debating" with you, sheesh.

Luna Thirteen · Aug 23, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Ah,a response, fun! Thank you Mr. Mumblyfish. I really like the Kansas City Hotsteppers too btw...oh well, anyways, You got me, I've never played Team fortress but I assume it's some kind of FPS or something...which I totally hate

But, yes, in an perhaps over-simplified speculation, I'd suggest that by playing the same map/level over and over that you would have the edge over someone who doesn't. It's not the same kind of grind as killing the same mobs over and over, but it's the same kind of "going through the motions just to one up someone who doesn't" mentality that I see so much groaning about. Call me short-sited if you want, I'm not going to attack you back, because I understand you may not agree with an issue that is a matter of opinion. The point I wanted to enforce is that it's unrealistic to expect gamers who play a game less to have the same edge gamers that play more do, which is the case in every game I've played. Not because DEVs are trying to reward grind, but because experience is going to give you benefits. It's really more addressed to people that cry all day about the game forcing them to grind. You're right, it's a lot more obvious in MMORPGs, but still exists, in some form or another, in all games (which you acknowledged in your response). Thank-you again for your interest Mr. Mumblyfish.

Starsky-sama · Aug 23, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

if these types of rpg games didnt have grind, everyone would start complaining that everything's too ez.

*everything will then be "given" to you and nothing has to be "worked" for.

as much as i enjoy the sound of that, ppl would be bored and move to another new game at a very fast rate.

Loviatar · Aug 23, 2005, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

I'm astounded. No, not all games have "grinds". In fact, very few do, Your notion that all games involve grind is, quite frankly, insane. .

i disagree.

the grind is only in a different more acceptable form to the twitch player.

if you dont consider several hours daily of playing the same areas over and over until each spot and twitch response to a given situation is reflex to be decently competitive isnt the definition of grinding i am surprised

one persons grind is another persons fun but it is still there

Luna Thirteen · Aug 23, 2005, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

Stupendous thread.

It's like, is it possible there are different brands of beer?

Is it possible there are different colors?

What else do you want people to spend time "debating" with you, sheesh.

I'm not very sure what you're getting at Mr. IlikeGW. Is this supposed to be some kind of shot at me making a "rediculous" arguement? I apologize in advance if I jumped to a wrong conclusion, I just honestly don't really get what you're saying. The main difference between the questions you asked and the question I asked is that people are split on my question and yours are pretty agreeable on. Again, I'm sorry if I took your post the wrong way, but I don't see why you'd try to make it look like I was completely off-base like that...

Double post quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i disagree.

the grind is only in a different more acceptable form to the twitch player.

if you dont consider several hours daily of playing the same areas over and over until each spot and twitch response to a given situation is reflex to be decently competitive isnt the definition of grinding i am surprised

one persons grind is another persons fun but it is still there

Thank you sir, I think you've more clearly illustrated the point that I've been attempting (unsuccessfully) to make

Phades · Aug 23, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

The difference is the style of gameplay. The more aspects that are under the direct control of the player, the less tedious and grindlike the game becomes.

Planetside has a grind in it, counterstrike does not. Yes, the comparison is a little too easy, but i would only call planetside a grind for things non-battle rank related. This is due to how simple it is to advance through the ranks and how effective the character can be even in the early ranks, while the rest of the ranks create more of a generalist soldier, instead of a specialist. Now command rank and accomidations are a little different. Accomidations can happen through normal play (if you are good), but to everyone else it is a process where they accomplish the goals while not dying. Dying can invalidate a portion of work towards one accomidation or another and are specific to the different certifications and under specific circumstances. Then there is command rank, which can only be advanced if your team is having a sucessful campaign against an enemy of signifigant size. The total dependancy on the other 100 or so people running around allows for many things to go wrong and any of them can cause the loss of potential experience towards command rank. For awhile the game also forced you to pin yourself down to a location while the transition of ownership occured, which caused other geographical issues due to the mechanic that command rank represents. These two things make the proceess tedious and like a "grind" to many, while others dont care because they are focused on just playing the game instead of the goals within the game. There is also a difference between learning (aka aquiring skill) and being skilled, but being forced to wait through a workout in order to recieve a prize.

When the amount of time spent to earn a character item or skill begins to exceede the amount of time it takes to aquire player skill, then it begins to feel like a "grind". Then you can observe the corrolation between player skill within a game and how playable or replayable it is, due to the constant interaction between the two. The more interaction, the more replayable it is typically, and the less of a "grind" it is. The amount of physical coordination, player coordination, timing, ability to read a target, precision, and other skills that dictate sucess through simple actions is lower on the scale for rpgs than fps games. This is due to the way the rpg games handle character sucess over player sucess. This is why rpgs in general are rather grind like, but to different levels from rpg to rpg. Then you can observe the overal enjoyment factor from playing the game. This lessens how tedious the game is and in rpg environments, it typically revovles around the story line so you don't notice the time spent "grinding". It could be argued around overal satisfaction level as well, but it is more of a overal play to replay issue.

It is not as easy as stating someone doesnt have patience, or just wants something now, but when the game stops feeling like a game. Immersion and player control are big factors towards that feeling and it is obvious that luna is still very immersed and not focusing on the time spent doing. The console final fantasy games are very big on immersion, but typically short on replay. There is nothing wrong with that, but people do not all progress through a game at the same pace.

Butadol · Aug 23, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

If you look at anything you do (in RL or in games) there is a grind involved. It could be your job, to move up you have to "grind" to get that position. Once you get that position the "grind" starts again to keep advancing. It isn’t a bad thing it is how life is. Even in a game, let's say a FPS; the people that "grind" out the hours are going to be the better players, no doubt. In MMO's (and I have played many, some for YEARS) it is no different. If you want to stay on top you have to "earn" or "work" for it, there is no option.

I am a "grind" player because I enjoy playing games. It is what I do to relax and my friends online are the same way. It is only a "grind" if 1. You don’t enjoy the game. or 2. You are used to having everything handed to you on a silver platter.

Guild Wars or any other MMO would never last if you didn’t have to earn or work for things. Ask any "REAL" MMO'er and they will tell you, the story can only keep you interested for so long, there has to be content that keeps the interest there after you have achieved those goals. It could be PvP for some and for others could be the "grind", earning the items you dream of, making money, farming, just standing around and chatting with guild mates. There are so many things that make these games "worth while".

I suggest you explore you options out there, make some friends, make some money, try different builds, lead groups, take off all you cloths and dance in that water at the gorge. Do something with you time other than come here and complain about how the grind sucks.

Actually if you are one of theses people. Better yet just uninstall.......

/rant off

Audhumla · Aug 23, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

I'm astounded. No, not all games have "grinds". In fact, very few do, and MMOs are the biggest culprits. There's no grind to, say, Team Fortress, as a brand new player has access to everything a seasoned competitive player has. Of course, the seasoned player will win in a fight between the two, but that's decided by skill and not arbitrary conditions like weapon unlocks or attributes that must be gained by playing the game for X amount of hours. Your notion that all games involve grind is, quite frankly, insane. And as much as I loathe Final Fantasy, it's a poor example. I've only played a couple, but there's no grind. You're never forced to raise your stats to continue, and even finish the game. I've bever had to "level my characters through random battles so I would be strong enough to continue", as you put it. Of the few Final Fantasies I've played, I never once had to stop playing to go fight the same monster over and over again for items or experience.

Your post is horribly short-sighted and misinformed. Frankly, I don't even think you've played that many games at all, or at least ones that aren't grind-orientated stat-fests.

One could argue that it takes grind to get good at any multiplayer game. These same people argue that any gameplay at all is grind. I'm a bit shocked at your choice to mention TFC as the jump in and play FPS. To play at a competitive, non-pub level it takes a good amount of time. Scout or Medic, gotta learn to conc well. Spy, gotta learn to backstab from the front. Any D, gotta learn conc aim.

Gameplay isn't grind.
Grind is only when you NEED something to continue, and play is IMPOSSIBLE without it.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 01:42 AM // 01:42

The one time in days I post a non-debate-type post, and no one says a word. I am astounded now

Weezer_Blue · Aug 23, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

During the beta, we had UAS. It was the highlight of all the betas, where PvP truley expanded. It was the most fun I had with any game in a long, long time. Just experimenting with builds for myself, let alone experimenting with team builds with my guild, kept me occupied for many hours at a time. It wasn't completely balanced then, as it didn't unlock runes or mods, but it was damn close. It had vertually no grind, and that is when the game flourished. UAX would make a perfect PvP game.

For a PvE game, grind is essential. And boring. However, A.Net made the sad mistake of squishing the two together so now PvE has very little content, and PvP has far too much grind.

Man With No Name · Aug 23, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I find Guild Wars to be a mostly grind-free RPG, but then I favor PvE characters....It's almost completely grind-free when compared with other titles like Diablo, Neverwinter Nights and countless other MMORPG's.

PvE is grind -- that's all it is -- and all it should be. In any RPG ( apart from Fallout <3 ) you'll kill the same crap over and over and over -- and do the same quest with a different name...

Guild Wars has even added refund points and the ability to change your secondary -- that's removed virtually all of the grind in my book -- since I don't have to scrap my character if I invest in a bad Skill Line / Attribute / Combat Feat -- like the other above RPG's

Even items make a miniscule difference on the gameplay with collectors offering better items than most of the Gold items I find...

The only grind IMO is related to skill unlocking

For the PvE Characters

Remove the requirement for Gold ( both to buy skills and to buy Capture Signets ) and another large chunk of the grind will dissapear -- it's common to leave FoW and UW with 3 or more skill points earnt in a single run -- I don't find that getting XP is a problem...

For the PvP Characters

This "Xtreme PvP weekend" should be interesting for the PvP crowd -- hopefully they'll increase the faction rewards permanently -- by a nice large number like x10

2000XP for a Guild vs Guild and 250XP in Arena sounds more reasonable =)

neoflame · Aug 23, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

No offense, but the idea that a competitive game could not possibly not have grind could only come from someone who's played nothing but RPG's. :/

Also, how do the NWN/expansion OC's have grind? (Anything other than the OC's are irrelevant because this is retail game discussion, not free community modules.)

Crispie · Aug 23, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

During the beta, we had UAS. It was the highlight of all the betas, where PvP truley expanded. It was the most fun I had with any game in a long, long time. Just experimenting with builds for myself, let alone experimenting with team builds with my guild, kept me occupied for many hours at a time. It wasn't completely balanced then, as it didn't unlock runes or mods, but it was damn close. It had vertually no grind, and that is when the game flourished. UAX would make a perfect PvP game.

For a PvE game, grind is essential. And boring. However, A.Net made the sad mistake of squishing the two together so now PvE has very little content, and PvP has far too much grind.

It wasnt in all the betas, just in the last ones, not that that changes your experiences, I too agree that UAS was an awesome feature durring beta, thank goodness it was so quickly put in after being suggested

Sainte · Aug 23, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

There is no real "grind" in Guild Wars.

I come from a heavy RPG background (HelBreath, Diablo I/II, Lineage, Rangarok, ect.) and I really dont mind the hack-and-slash leveling grind in games. Its fun, because you know that somewhere along the road you achieve a milestone. New skills, new armor, new weapon, good drops, and so on. Guild Wars is different. The grind here is doing the EXACT same thing over and over and over again until you unlocked every skill so you can PvP. This is not hard, its easy, but its boring. I finished the game with 2 Chars, and on my third, I stopped just outside Piken square, mainly because the game lost all suprises. I knew where and what mobs would spawn, I knew where I had to go, I knew the missions and could do them without getting lost. This was all just boring.

Sanji · Aug 23, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Been playing Roleplaying games one way or another for 20 years.

The grind in Guild Wars is not comparable to MMORPGs, Hack 'n Slash ala Diablo, or Console Roleplaying games. The Grind in those games is a benefical mechanic that extends the life of the game, the Grind in Guild Wars isn't. There isn't an "Uber" in Guild Wars, there is no point in adding so much repetive and pointless gameplay just to have more options.

It's not gratifying, especially since many Guilds and Players, actually, good Guilds and players, people who have been following Guild Wars for a while are going inactive as a result of it. I'm willing to wait it out and see if Anet decides to fix this problem like they are suggestion, but that may not be enough to bring people back much less draw in new people. Blame the disposable video game market all you want, but unfortunately that is how things are now and that's where the money is.

The way the current Skill unlock system is adds nothing to the game but takes quite a bit. It's an unbalanced, failed artificial replay value mechanic. It's superflous and needs to be fixed. It does nothing but stiffle PvP and it adds absolutely nothing to the longevity of the game.

All it seems to be good for is causing people to quit and creating forum drama.

Saerden · Aug 23, 2005, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sainte

There is no real "grind" in Guild Wars.

I come from a heavy RPG background (HelBreath, Diablo I/II, Lineage, Rangarok, ect.)

This is how people can say there is grind in RPGs. You dont have a RPG background. Not from the things you listed here. RPGs: Baldurs Gate I , II, Gothic I , II, Morrowind, Neverwinter, Kotor, maybe even Jade Empires (never played), D&D, hell even Deus Ex, and dressing up and pretending to fire fake rifles at your friends who pretend to be the Union / federation.

No offense, but you play the only games in the world where grind is an integral part of the design.

Your ideas on the GW grind are, like sanji's, dead on though. This is exactly the problem. Either you like the "getting powerfull" game (Diablo I, II, most MMORPGs) or you dont (CounterStrike, Starcraft, ect) (or even both!) - but GW tried to mix both and ended up with the most useless "keep em playing" system there is. Getting skills does not make you ubar, yet it is required to play the fun pvp part. Yes you can play GW with premades, and you can play chess with only pawns. Even if your opponent only has paws of a different color, and nothing else, the game is still boring.

Sainte · Aug 23, 2005, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

This is how people can say there is grind in RPGs. You dont have a RPG background. Not from the things you listed here. RPGs: Baldurs Gate I , II, Gothic I , II, Morrowind, Neverwinter, Kotor, maybe even Jade Empires (never played), D&D, hell even Deus Ex, and dressing up and pretending to fire fake rifles at your friends who pretend to be the Union / federation.

No offense, but you play the only games in the world where grind is an integral part of the design.

Your ideas on the GW grind are, like sanji's, dead on though. This is exactly the problem. Either you like the "getting powerfull" game (Diablo I, II, most MMORPGs) or you dont (CounterStrike, Starcraft, ect) (or even both!) - but GW tried to mix both and ended up with the most useless "keep em playing" system there is. Getting skills does not make you ubar, yet it is required to play the fun pvp part. Yes you can play GW with premades, and you can play chess with only pawns. Even if your opponent only has paws of a different color, and nothing else, the game is still boring.

I put ect. there =P

I played other RPGs, including Baldurs Gate, Torment, D&D, UO, MU, Many Online RPGs like Alien Adopt. Agency (lol) and Nox, among others. Yes, these require grind though =/.

Most MMORPGs have grind intergrated so people play, otherwise if you start with all items/max lvl, the PvP better be sufficient for hundred of hours. Sadly, GW doesnt give you many options in this. You either farm faction or farm exp/money to buy new skills, its still grind, which is not supposed to be a part of the game.